57: Why Is It So Hard to Say No? With Annalyn Cruz

EPISODE 57

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] AW: You’re listening to the Transcend Podcast. I’m your host, Asha Wilkerson, an attorney by training and an educator at heart. This podcast is all about empowering you to build a business and leave a legacy. Here’s the thing, the wealth gap in America is consistently increasing and while full-time entrepreneurship is not for everyone, even a side hustle could change your financial landscape if you’re intentional about using your business to build wealth. I’ve run my own law firm for over 10 years, and in that time, I’ve helped countless California businesses go from idea to six figures. On this podcast, we talk about what it truly takes to build a sustainable business and find financial freedom. Let’s dive in.

[EPISODE]

[00:00:44] AW:  Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Transcend the Podcast. This week, I am here with my friend and client Annalyn Cruz. Welcome Annalyn, how are you today?

[00:00:53] AC: Thank you, Asha, I’m great. How are you doing?

[00:00:56] AW: Pretty good. School. Classes have started back up. So, I am back to being more diligent about managing my time and when and how I think about things. So, week one is always a transition and I’m transitioning.

[00:01:11] AC: Yeah, I remember those days of the academic year kicking off, and just how busy it could feel and just so much going on.

[00:01:18] AW: Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you all for tuning in. I asked Annalyn to join me again on the podcast. She is now a veteran podcast guest. This is her second time on the podcast, and I’m thrilled that she has come back. But this episode is inspired by a conversation we were having last week about just being able to say no as entrepreneurs, as entrepreneurs of color. It can be really, really hard. And so, I thought, well, maybe I should do an episode on this. And I thought maybe it’ll be a better episode if I invite a guest. So, I invited Annalyn to come and talk to me about it, talk to us about it. And so that’s why we’re here. So, how are you feeling about that topic?

[00:01:58] AC: I love this topic. It’s so top of mind and heart because I just said no to potential business last week, actually a couple of times now. And every time I do it, I always have to pause and think about do I really want to say no? And we could get into all the reasons why it could be difficult as folks of color, who are entrepreneurs, as women of color who may have some difficulties with this. So yeah, I have some perspectives to share, and I know you have a lot of wisdom to share as well.

[00:02:33] AW: Yeah, definitely. I think it definitely comes up. I think it’s definitely a woman thing. But there’s an extra layer that’s added on for women of color. I think also first gen women, first gen immigrants, first gen immigrant women, just there’s so many layers. Moms, right? There are so many layers to that. And I was thinking about it, as you were explaining your journey of saying no to a particular gig and where in my own journey have I had trouble saying no. For me, it shows up as – right now, it’s showing up as wanting to be helpful, even though I don’t want to do something, or taking on other work because I think that I can or I “should” regardless of whether I want to, or actually have the capacity to. So, how does it show up for you?

[00:03:21] AC: I resonate with what you just shared. I think the other part of me, the additional layer is the people pleaser in me, the recovering people pleaser. And I grew up in a family or in a cultural structure that was like just say yes, right? How do you get to the yes? How do you not rock the boat? And also, as a person who has immigrant parents, it’s like don’t leave money on the table. Why would we leave money on the table if you actually can do it or should do it? Why would you say no to money and an opportunity to serve, right? And to take on a gig that may or may not be in alignment, which I know part of our conversation last week was, is this really in alignment to what you want to do and how you want to serve particular communities and clients, and that was – I had to take a hard look at that and think to myself, is this really something that I want to do? Am I excited about it? Are these the folks that I want to serve and spend my time? While I could have taken it on, it didn’t feel good to say yes.

[00:04:41] AW: Even once you realize it didn’t feel good to say yes, like what was your – what were you struggling with after you realize that the yes doesn’t feel good?

[00:04:50] AC: Besides for residual Catholic guilt?

[00:04:53] AW: I am some of that too. I went to a Catholic high school and college, but thankfully – well, I shouldn’t say that. My parents weren’t Catholic, so that Catholic guilt didn’t come from them. But I know what Catholic guilt is.

[00:05:03] AC: Yeah, there’s definitely some of that. So, I think the process for me was, one, making the decision, but two, really being okay, and accepting that I don’t have to take every single gig or opportunity that comes my way. Whoever made that rule, that I had to say yes to everything. And I think it also was a way for me to take a look at my past behaviors or my past patterns of saying yes, or being the person on the team to raise their hand and say, like, “Yeah, I could take that on.” And I may have shared this in the previous podcast, I can’t remember. But I’ve gone through workplace burnout before in 2019. And I vowed to myself after I went through that experience, and recovered from it, that I will never live my life that way ever again. And I, especially, did not go into entrepreneurship and open up my own business to continue that sort of behavior.

So, for me, I think it was also kind of a throwback to, hey, remember what it was like when you were burning out? Or when you felt completely exhausted and not in alignment with what you were working on, we’re not going to do that again. So, it was a conversation I had to have within myself. And then, of course, with you and the rest of the Transcend community to be like, “Hey, here’s some things that are coming up for me.” And you all, to hold the mirror up and be like, “No, that’s perfectly fine, if not amazing to say no.” And to have that privilege, to be able to say no to certain things that just don’t –I keep saying that aren’t in alignment or that I frankly, don’t want to do.

[00:06:58] AW: Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a couple of layers to it, right? Because on one hand, you’re an entrepreneur, and you just celebrated your one-year anniversary, right? Or coming up on one year?

[00:07:10] AC: Yeah, it’s been a little over a year.

[00:07:13] AW: Yeah, which is awesome. Congrats, by the way. So, it’s new, and a lot of folks, myself included, have felt like, you take everything that you can when you’re building a business almost indiscriminately. So, there’s like that hustle, culture of entrepreneurship, but then deeper down, in some of our communities, we have not been taught how to say no, or that it’s okay to say no. It hasn’t been safe to say no. So, I talked to my mom about this conversation, and I talked to her sometimes too, about – I remind her and remind myself that in my own career, I’m a tenured college educator, which means that I have job security, which means that I don’t need to break my neck or my back to go above and beyond all of these extra things that are outside of the scope of what I’m expected to do in my role.

But in private practice, or things like that, it is more, I don’t know, common, maybe, or understandable or acceptable, or maybe not, to do above and beyond so that you can be seen and be seen as this good worker, right? I’m telling my mom, I don’t have to, because I’m telling her, but I’m telling myself, right? I don’t have to do more than what is actually required of me if I don’t want to. I was like, remember, I’m tenured. She’s like, “Okay, but you don’t trust the tenure process. Why is that?” She’s like, “You’re right. I don’t because historically, as black folks in the United States, the law wasn’t there to protect us 30, 40, 50 years ago, not even necessarily that long ago.” So, she said even in her career, even though she was tenured, she never felt that job security, because the of the historical treatment of black folks not getting paid or being discharged from jobs, and the law not being there to protect them.

So, there’s this element that I haven’t seen in my lifetime, but my mom has seen and her generation has seen, that their advice is also saying no, so you can rest. What? That’s not secure. That’s not safe. Right? So, what are some of the cultural things that you have identified as some of the reasons why it might be difficult or challenging for you also to say no? I have more, but I want to share.

[00:09:37] AC: Yeah. I identify as Filipino American from Asian American family and my parents are from the Philippines. So, I think generally speaking, there’s a sense of you work hard all the time, right? There’s not really a time for rest or it’s not really something that one should seek out, right? So, it is interesting, as you were sharing about your mom and what she was sharing with you. Sometimes I’ll be on the phone with my mom. And she’s like, “You’re not working today.” And it’s like a random Tuesday, right? I’m like, “Yeah, I decided not to work today.” She’s like, “Really?” It’s just, she was taken aback of the fact that I, one, can do this. And two, that I’m taking that time for myself, because both of my parents had the same jobs for 40, 50 plus years with the same company or school, in the case of my mom. So, it’s just not even something that’s fathomable, right? In terms of their own experience. So, there’s that layer to it.

And then, I think having grown up in American culture, which is often about the grind capitalism, make the most money you can, just continue to – just be in this system that we’ve been acculturated to and in some ways been brainwashed to believe that this is the way things have to be, right? So, I have found myself, even when I do take those Tuesdays off, for example. I have to check in with myself like, “Man, what’s coming up for me?” Because I have heard from my parents directly, like, “Oh, don’t be lazy. You’re just laying around. What are you doing right now? Don’t sleep in. go ahead and do something with yourself.” Right?

So, I didn’t realize how deep that was, until recently, until I started my own business, and now I can make the hours that I want or take on work that I want or not, and I think it’s going to continue to be a learning lesson for me. I’m going to continue to develop in this space on saying no, and being okay, and thriving in the rest, period. And going again, being counterculture to what I would say many people in this culture and country tend to work, right? I think, it’s slowly changing, but I think that there’s still this sense of you continue to grind, you continue to work long hours and continue to give back, even if it’s at the detriment of our own wellbeing.

[00:12:21] AW: Yeah, like what wellbeing? That’s not even a consideration. Like I remember my uncle, he is another one of those folks who worked for the same company for over 40 years. And when he retired, I don’t remember the number of days, but he was like, “I never took a day off, even when I was sick.” And he was so proud about that. I was like, “Wow, that’s amazing uncle.” And also, like, “What?” But it was fueled by that fear, but also by that pride, of never having taken a day off. But also, again, my mom, my uncle, knew people that if they didn’t show up, they were replaced, right? So, that fear is tangible. That thing about laziness that you mentioned, there’s all kinds of stereotypes about lazy people of color, and about taking advantage or you don’t really want to work. I think there’s a whole thing about affirmative action. I think that’s particular.

Black folks are the biggest, like, face of affirmative action. But actually, white women benefited way more than any other group of people, a minority group of people from affirmative action. But there’s that sense of, there’s only room for one of you here, so you better not mess it up. Or like, “Wow, there’s two of you in a department of 500?” Man! You feel like you’re under all of this extra scrutiny. And then there’s the sense of that we are lucky to be where we are. So, it’s approaching an opportunity or receiving an opportunity from this place of humility, gratitude, almost like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so fortunate. I’m so lucky to have this, as if we haven’t earned the things that are coming our way.” And I’m going to look up, because I think Lupe, put something like that in our group chat on Instagram. Shout out to Lupe. I want to just get the wording right on what the phrase was. But what do you think about that positioning of feeling like you’re lucky to have an opportunity, versus stepping into the power of knowing that you have earned this opportunity and every other one that is coming your way?

[00:14:31] AC: Oh, that resonates a lot. I mean, I think that’s where I was at, right in terms of the recent gig that I had turned down. I was feeling bad about saying no, because I’ve said no a couple of times already, and that’s real. It’s real to think, “Oh, wow, I’m so lucky that I have the life that I have or that I built my business up or have built my career to be able to say no. And yet there is this sort of like, oh.” Why does this feel uncomfortable? I loved what Lupe said, and I loved what you all, again, held up the mirror for me to say like, “You’ve worked hard for this. His was not an overnight sensation that people are like, knocking down my door and just out of nowhere, I have to take the opportunity, because it’ll never come again.” And that’s another thing I wanted to mention was, I have continued to develop my own healing around scarcity mindset, and my money story around, take whatever is available to you, because you never know, like, next year, what if you don’t get anything? What if you don’t get offered anything?

And I have been stuck in that for many years and didn’t realize it until I worked with you and other coaches in my life around this sense of, “Wait a second, that is not true.” And if I keep approaching business opportunities or partnerships from a scarcity mindset, then I will be very unhappy with my business moving forward, because I will only be taking work thinking the next shoe is going to drop, right? So, I have to take it, and it’s just, it’s not a good place to be in terms of always holding on to that.

Again, this is not to blame my parents, but I think there is culturally a scarcity mindset with many immigrant families of, “Hey, look, we came to this country with not a lot. So, anything that comes your way, you have to save and/or take what comes to you, because you just don’t know what the future holds.” My parents left the Philippines because of martial law, and because of everything that was happening within the government at that time with the Marcos regime and, have suffered through wars. So, it makes sense that that is culturally like a concern, right? And that scarcity is something that is a part of my culture, your culture, et cetera, and it doesn’t have to continue to be that way for us.

[00:17:13] AW: Yeah. So, I found what Lupe said. She said, “Permission to be more than grateful. Permission to be great.” And I think that’s like, awesome, right? Because there’s that positionality, of gratefulness. And we’re conditioned to be grateful, because, “Oh, you made it, and so many people can’t make it.” All of that pressure that gets put on outside the community and also within the community.

But to go back to what you’re saying about your parents in the scarcity mindset, my parents in the scarcity mindset, a lot of groups in the scarcity mindset is that at some point, so this is moving into what do we do? How do we move forward? How do we check ourselves? And whenever I feel that loop coming up, I acknowledge that, “Oh, that’s a piece of advice from my parents, or that generation, that served them. Showing up every day to work, telling my grandfather or someone telling my uncle to show up every day to work, whereas a black man working in a predominantly white environment was good advice, because they had known someone who would be fired, if they missed work, even though they were sick, right? They didn’t have the same protection laws. Discrimination was still very heavy.

That was good advice back then. That advice is not applicable to this present-day conversation. And so, I think as we move forward and think about, okay, how do I want to get stronger in my no? How do I want to be great and not just grateful? It’s really thinking about the thoughts that are running through our head, the messages, the voices that we hear, the mindsets that we have, and thinking about, “Okay, where did this come from? How come it’s so hard to say no?” Well, because I’m afraid that if I don’t show up, I might not have a job. Where did that come from? Because someone in my family had that experience. Okay, is this the same time? Are we in the same situation? Is this advice applicable to us, the same way it was, one or two or three generations ago?

And chances are, it’s probably not, which is why following that advice, leads to Catholic guilt and burnout, right? Because it’s not applicable in the same way that it was before. So, as you’re talking about developing healing and practices, what are some of the things that you’ve been able to come up with, to help you move from that position of feeling like it’s hard to say no, and into a place that feels more empowered to say no.

[00:19:32] AC: One of the things that I have really adopted is this saying of when I say no, I’m powerfully saying yes to something that’s more in alignment with what I want to be doing, how I want to spend my time, where I want to put my energy towards. So, for me, it’s okay, if I say no to this opportunity, or this gig or whatever is presented in front of me, what am I going to say yes to, or what do I want to say yes to, instead. So, that was a powerful reframe for me because it’s like, “Hey, I’m not going to be saying no to every opportunity. But I’m just going to be saying yes to things that I’m actually excited about, and that are serving the folks that I want to serve. Or it’s a type of opportunity that fires me up versus my reaction.” And I’ve been really paying attention to my body’s reaction when I make certain decisions, or how things land because our brains will tell us all day, like, “Oh, you should take this.” Right? “This is an opportunity that won’t come across your table again.”

But if I know if I’m feeling like my heart racing, or if my gut is telling me this just doesn’t feel right. I listened to that now. So, it’s being in tune with my own body wisdom and my own intuition in these types of situations. And just goes to show when I said no to that previous offer, literally right, the next day, I think I told you, by the way, a colleague out of nowhere, reached out to me on LinkedIn, and not only offered me another opportunity, but offered me two opportunities in one phone call. I did not expect that.

So, the other thing I would say, if people resonate with this is trusting that the universe, spirit, God, however, you want to label this greater good, always has my back. And I am just going to trust that when I say notice something, something even better is going to come through my door, my virtual door, and let me know that this is actually what I’m supposed to be doing. Right. So, it’s a check-in within myself, it’s a check-in within the universe, or this greater power, and just trusting and having faith that, again, things happen for a reason. And there’s some agency and power that I have within myself to say no, and to be really clear on when things don’t feel right, or when you’re not fired up about it, for whatever reason, to listen to that.

[00:22:19] AW: Yeah. And that’s still something to be completely honest, that I struggle with. I got an email today, or I read the email today from some folks who just moved to California. They have a business and they want to connect with a business attorney, and they want to create more contracts for their business, and I don’t enjoy creating contracts. I don’t mind reviewing them. I like reviewing them and negotiating on them and stuff like that. I don’t want to be – I don’t really enjoy drafting them, right? And so, what happens is an opportunity comes across my email, and I go, “I should do this. This won’t take that much time. It’s an opportunity to make money, which you want more of, you should do this. It makes logical sense.” And then if I don’t listen to my body, when I’m like, “Oh, another contract”, whatever, having some kind of response. And inevitably, later on, it takes me forever to do the work, because I don’t want to do it. I am dragging my feet, getting revisions to the client. I procrastinate, and it’s never nearly as bad as I think it’s going to be when I just sit down and do it. But it’s all of those things that are signs to me, too little too late sometimes, because I’ve already signed up, that I really don’t want to do this. I just don’t want to do it.

But I really fight with – my logical brain really fights with my, I guess emotional brain, or my body, and I don’t honor enough the feelings or that initial desire that I don’t want to do it. It goes back to some of the same things that you said earlier about well, it’s a good opportunity. Are you just being lazy? I heard, even as an adult like a year ago, a couple years ago now. My dad had said to me, he was like, “Yeah, this reminds me of you in middle school. You just didn’t want to work hard.” I’m like, “I’m 36 years old at this point.” I had to really think about it, because they hurt my feelings so bad. One, that it was this thing back to middle school. But two, that I’m also one of the hardest working people that I know, and I had to really think about it because there’s still this voice in my head that oftentimes comes up, “Well, you just don’t want to work hard”, which is what makes saying no hard.

I have to remind myself, that’s not actually my voice, that’s somebody else’s was voice that got stuck in there from childhood. You can remove that voice and put something else in there. But that part that you were talking about, about listening to your body, that body wisdom, and if you’re not totally in tune, think about – you can close your eyes and take a deep breath and think about what it feels like to not want to do something. Does it create butterflies in your stomach? Does it create knots in your stomach? Did your heart start to beat faster? Get familiar with that, so when you feel that feeling again, that’s your body telling you no.

And if that’s hard to tap into, do the opposite. Think about what it’s like when you’re excited for an opportunity. What is it like when you get ready to go on a trip, or when you get a client that you really want to meet with, or when you finish a project, you’re like, I know, I nailed it. Memorize that feeling, so that when someone comes to you with an opportunity, you’re seeking an opportunity, and those feelings and emotions come up in your body. Now, you recognize that as the green light that gives you permission to go ahead and move forward.

[00:25:33] AC: Totally. Yeah, I think that’s great advice, because we’ve all had those moments of when we’ve said yes, and it feels really good, and it feels right, and we’re excited about it. I know for myself, the speed at which I respond, right is a lot different. I’m like, “Yes.” I’m like, “100%, I want to learn more about this. I want to help. I want to be able to say yes to this.” And yet, there are these moments where that is not my response. And my body’s like, “Uhh.” There’s a holding back, there’s a delay in my response, right? There are all of these convincing thoughts that I’m trying to tell myself, all the should.

I mean, I know you’ve heard this and folks have heard this as well. But it’s like, you shouldn’t should all over yourself, right? It’s just when the word should comes up, it’s likely a, don’t do it. Because for whatever reason, you’re feeling this obligation to say yes, and, I think that’s really good advice to just think about those moments when, again, when are you excited to – when have you said yes in the past? When have you been really engaged in certain projects or work that you’ve taken on and hold on to that and reflect on, what is it about that experience, that made me feel the way that I did? And how can I continue to tap into that? Whatever that is, I think, that will get us closer to saying yes to the things that we really love and want in our lives versus the obligatory, yes. Even the way I just said that right now, I’m like, “Uhh.”

[00:27:22] AW: Obligatory, yes, right? I mean, I think that’s so true, and I think that’s really good advice. And for anyone who’s listening that is not in that place yet where you can be really choosy, like, maybe you’re just starting out, or maybe you’re transitioning in or taking work from another company or things like that. Just make it your goal, to really start to analyze what you’re saying yes to, and what you’re saying no to and start. Start small, but make it your end goal to only say yes to things that are really in alignment with who you are, and with what you want to do. Because life is so much better when we’re in alignment, and I think as entrepreneurs, we have a lot more control. We have a lot more control over the work that we do than someone who’s an employee. So, what’s the point of striking out on our own, if we’re going to be just as miserable as we were, right?

When we were working for somebody else, you have this unique opportunity to build the life that you want, how you want, when you want, where you want, and step into that full power. As Lupe said, “Permission to be great, not just grateful.” So, Annalyn, if folks are looking for coaching, I want you to be able to tell folks where they can find you and also the clientele that you are serving. So, tell us a little bit about your coaching business.

[00:28:40] AC: Yeah. So, I have a one to one coaching business for now, that might grow into a group coaching business as well. But I primarily serve women of color who really want to find that career freedom in their lives. And when I say that, I mean, what does work life balance look like? How are you going after the type of role, and job, and assignments that really light you up instead of going for a particular job title, for example, and just having that sense of freedom and agency not only in their careers, but also in all parts of their lives, right? So, I often serve women who are stepping into a new leadership role at their work as an example, or they’re trying to transition and start a new career in a different industry. I find that the clients that seek me out do so, yeah, one because of my resume and like my work experience. But two, they really see themselves in me, and I see myself in them.

So, there’s this reciprocity of energy exchange, cultural nuances that maybe a different coach may not necessarily have and it really lights me up to serve those women and like BIPOC entrepreneurs or folks who are just trying to make a shift in their lives, and maybe have had some fear and trepidation in doing that. Yeah, so that’s part of what I do, along with creating leadership development experiences and workshops for different types of leaders. But again, primarily for BIPOC communities in different companies and organizations. Oh, and where people can find me? So, I’m on Instagram. You can find me @groundedinwisdom. So, that’s my company’s name. If you want to check me out on my website, it’s groundedinwisdom.co. Or you could look me up on LinkedIn, @AnnalynCruz.

[00:30:48] AW: There you go. So, one of the beauties of working with coaches, no matter what the stated goals, or the outcome is, is that most coaches would be able to help you see your own thoughts, right? So, when we were coming up, that was how this podcast even happened, because we were talking about saying no, and then some of us in the group mirrored for Annalyn, what was going on in her head, and made her say some things back to us if she were coaching us in this situation, and she was able to see her own thoughts in that way. So definitely, if you’re looking to make a career move, or just change some things around in your life, talk to Annalyn. If you are looking to use your business to build wealth, come and holler at me. You can find me on Instagram as well, @AshaWilkersonEsq, or go to the transcendthemembership.com, and check me out over there. Thank you, Annalyn, so much for this conversation. I truly appreciate your time, and your grounded wisdom.

[00:31:43] AC: Thank you. I just wanted to do a shout out for you, Asha, and the Transcend program. It’s been such an amazing community and resource for me, particularly in my first year of running a business, not having come from an entrepreneurial background, or family that has done this. And so, a lot of my learning and development has been through this space and working with you and getting to know you through this experience. So, I just want to say thank you for all that you’ve done for me and for the entire Transcend community. And for other folks who are thinking about working with Asha, do it. That’s all I say. Sign up and you won’t regret it.

[00:32:25] AW: Thank you. Thank you, Annalyn. I appreciate you so much. That’s exactly why I’ve created this space, because we all have a right to thrive and I want to be able to support us through those transitions. So, thank you for jumping in and for being a two-time all-star guest on this podcast.

[00:32:42] AC: All right. No problem.

[00:32:45] AW: We will talk to you all later. Ciao. Ciao.

[END]